People are always asking us how can we afford to take these epic bucket list vacations because they think it must cost a fortune. The truth is Melissa hasn't paid for a flight to Europe in years, if even ever, in all of the trips that we've taken. One of our problems is we've been boxed into using certain brands until our guests this week opened our eyes to a better solution that allows us to be more flexible in how we use reward points to travel. This week, we want to share with you some of the secrets to opening new opportunities that you may not know about. So sit back and learn from our guests this week on how you can travel for free or near free using the tips from Abby Hattaberg.
I'm Scott.
And I'm Melissa.
And we're the Sunshine Travelers. Our passion is travel and sharing our experiences with those who enjoyed as much as we do, or those who want to learn more about travel, or even those who just want to live vicariously through our travel stories. No matter where you fall along that journey, get ready to hear about our firsthand experiences as we visit some of the most interesting and amazing places on earth.
I've been following Abby on Instagram for a while now and literally learned so much from her Instagram posts and stories that I binge all of them. Scott and I have been using airline miles and hotel points for years, even to the point where it's painful to have to pay for a flight or a hotel room. But in the past, we have stuck within the same brands, Delta and Marriott, which doesn't necessarily give you the most bang for your buck in terms of points and flexibility. Abby may not know this, but thanks to her, we have dug way deeper into earning more points over the last 12 months and then learning how to redeem them for some upcoming trips, what we will get into in a bit. So since our goal is to help you travel more and better, and we always try to use points and miles first when booking our travels, Abby does this for her entire family multiple times a year. So we wanted to have her on the podcast and help us all learn even more.
And Melissa, I would just add that this doesn't replace what we've said about loyalty, because there are some benefits to loyalty. So we mentioned Delta and Marriott. Most likely, we're still going to fly Delta pretty often because we've got things like my diamond status where we get to fly in first class, right? Those are things that you won't get if you don't have loyalty with the brand. But where that's not the best option for us is what we're going to talk about today.
And even earning more points that we could use maybe on those airlines if that ends up being the best redemption. So that's absolutely true. thank you so much for So, being Abby, on our podcast maybe on those today. if that ends up being airlines, the best So that's absolutely redemption. true. So Abby, thank you so much for being on our podcast today. Our goal is to help our listeners and our followers travel more and better. And what a better way to do that than sharing what you do, which is to use Points and Miles for free and discounted travel, which allows you to do just that. And so we wanted to have you on and just share some of your tips and tricks and basics and all the things with our listeners. So Abby, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm so grateful to be here. And I just love, I always like say like, how is everyone not doing this? You know, so I'm always so happy to spread the word, get more families traveling together, especially if it feels like completely out of reach to you financially. So I am, yeah, Abby Hattaberg. I'm a mom of three based in Dallas, Texas. And essentially, yeah, I help teach other families how to travel more for less nearly free or really steeply discounted vacations using credit card points and miles. So how to, you know, receive credit card points without, you know, negatively impacting your credit score. have all those points in hand, how to maximize them to their very maximum travel potential. Because I guarantee you, you're probably not using those points to their full travel potential right now. So yeah, I'm excited to share. But we love, yeah, we love traveling. We love traveling internationally. And we love hidden gems. And we love Europe. You know, we're basically traveling on every break that we can.
yeah. So, That is awesome. that is awesome. Yeah, We love to do the same thing. So I am how did you get into this? curious, How did you get started?
Yeah. So I think, you know, when me and my husband first met, we always like shared a love of travel. Like even from that first date, that was something immediately that we connected on. We thought we wanted to live abroad for a while. You know, life had other plans. We ended up in Texas. But we always found creative ways to travel. You know, we've always kind of been a one income family. Budget has been tight. You know, I always say we've had like a champagne travel taste on a beer budget. We just wanted to travel so much more than our budget allowed. So that forced us to get creative. And so over the years, you know, we did things like Airbnb our house when we went away to, you know, capitalize on that, you know, asset that we already owned. And then it was after I had my second. So we had one kind of two-year-old fresh baby. We were really just looking for a way. I was kind of, you know, struggling with postpartum and I was just searching for a way like to get my spirit back, you know, like just, it had been a while since we traveled and there came across this like flash flight deal for Italy. And I remember just calling my husband and be like, is it a crazy idea if we just, you know, hop on this flash flight deal and go to Italy? And he was like, I'm in, we owned our own business at that time. So we kind of dropped everything and went. And so at that time, you know, that's what kind of started our points journey. And from there, so that was what, quite a while ago, six years ago. And from there, we've just learned how to use our credit card points more effectively and more effectively and more effectively and how to accumulate them more quickly. So that's what kind of kicked it off was just this like bucket list trip to Italy to take our kids there for a month over that summer. I had lived in Italy after I graduated college. So to go back was really special and kind of a bucket list trip for us. But that's kind of what kicked it off was just this like dream of a trip with two young kids to this country that was really, really special to us. And then from there, just, you know, kind of honing in our points and miles skills and, you know, now getting better and better at it to where we're taking, you know, multiple bucket list trips a year for a fraction of the actual cost. So.
That's great. You know, we just recently did an episode about traveling with children to Europe. OK, yeah, we did that earlier this year with our grandkids who are five and two. It's just amazing to watch them. You know, and some people say, oh, they won't remember it and stuff like that. But I really do believe they were creating some core memories.
yeah, we did that
and two.
Amen. I totally agree. I think, you know, on that first trip, like our oldest turned three while we were in Italy and our youngest was eight months. And she absolutely, the oldest absolutely remembers. And the youngest, no, she, I don't know if she has conscious memories of it, but it absolutely built like into our family culture i think you know this like culture of this is what we do together this is how we make memories together and then how fun for like she's always referencing back like well you've got you have to take me back to italy because i don't even remember the pizza like i was eight months old you know so she's like still waiting on her like real trip to italy but yeah, I totally agree. I think it just, they may not like have those conscious memories of it, but it's like 100%, I think building into who they are and like also the family culture, I think
so. Yeah, for sure. So tell us for somebody who has no idea, like how to get points and miles or how to get, or they're hearing you say this and like, how do you get that many points and miles? Because I think sometimes we may see on the internet, it might be a single person or a couple and you're like, okay, well that's fine for them. Totally. You have got, now your youngest is still, is he still free on flights or are you paying him to pay? About to not be. We just took our last free
get that many
Totally.
We just took our last free flight. So. Okay. So you're going to have
flight. So. Okay. So you're going to have five and you're still going to be able to do this. So how does how does somebody get started?
to have five
get started? Yeah. So I would say kind of big, big picture framework reward travel is essentially the idea of, you know, we're going to throw out our debit card. We're going to use our credit card for every single purchase responsibly. And we're going to, when we make purchases, we're going to earn points that can then be used and redeemed on, say, airfare hotels. So that's kind of big picture framework. We're making purchases, earning. Most people understand that concept. But I think for so many people, you put all your normal expenses, so many people are putting all their normal expenses on a credit card, and maybe they're earning what, like a few hundred dollars, maybe a thousand dollars to take off a vacation a year, like nothing super significant. And so the shift with reward travel happens essentially like the reward travel cycle is kind of how I'm very visual. So I like to think about it like as a cycle. We are essentially the biggest bang you can get for your buck when it comes to reward travel is signing up for a new card. Because when the banks essentially say, hey, if you open up this new card and you spend X amount of money and X amount of time, you are going to earn this welcome offer, this bonus of sorts. And we're going to reward you with a big pile of points, essentially. So that's kind of where you see the highest ROI on earning points. You can put your purchases on one card over and over, and you're really only going to earn so much. But the real magic happens when you can take those everyday purchases that you were going to make anyways and put them on new cards over and over. So that's kind of like the framework of the cycle is essentially we are taking the purchases we're already making. We are never spending any extra money to earn a bonus, right? Because that would completely defeat the purpose of the free travel, right? I think that is huge underlying key here is if you cannot use your credit card like a debit card, like this might not be the travel saving, you know, strategy for you in this season. But if you are able to, credit cards can be an amazing tool for earning, you know, really steeply discounted vacations for your family. for you earning, really steeply know, discounted vacations for your family. So essentially, that's kind of the cycle is taking those everyday purchases we are already making, signing up for new cards that you put back then, in our pocket know, a big pile of reward points. I may open up a card and then I refer my husband to that same We're combining card. all those points together. And then kind of the second key part of the point cycle is instead of, you know, we've got that big old pile of points now, instead of say, you know, using them as a cashback statement credit, which is what we did for years and years and years. So like if we had 100,000 points, we would cash it out for $1,000 to kind of erase our travel purchases. We did that forever. Or maybe, you know, like, gosh, I remember so many like gift cards I would purchase in the credit card travel portal. And now I'm like, you know, oh my goodness, like just RIP to all the travel lost on all those gift cards that I purchased in that portal. So essentially the key is once you get that big pile of points, we are going to transfer them out to airline and hotel partners of your card. That is where you'll see like a huge return on your points. And that alone, even just you starting to transfer your points out can double to triple your travel potential. And then it just starts all over again. So, you know, you, you know, earn those points, redeem those points by transferring them out, and then we're signing up for new cards to do the whole thing over again. So that's kind of like big picture.
kind of like big picture. I think that's probably a scary concept for people who are listening to this for the first time. 100%. Right?
first time.
100%. Right?
So can you just take a few minutes because I caught that you were talking about responsible usage and not doing something out of the ordinary. But can you just kind of hone in on that for a minute?
Yeah, absolutely. I would say, number one, yes. I think if you weren't a little skeptical about this, I might be a little concerned. I think it shows a lot of financial responsibility if you are skeptical about this. I think that's normal and healthy. And I think anyone in the points world like went through that phase. That's very normal. I would say, starting with the biggest misconception that having a lot of accounts, so a lot of new cards open on your credit history automatically means a negative score. I think that's like the biggest misconception. You know, I grew up in a like very financially minded household. So this kind of goes against everything I was taught in a way. But again, it can be a tool if used responsibly to leverage so much more travel than you already thought, but it has to be used responsibly. And what I mean by that is we're not spending any more. So like if I have to meet this, I've got to spend, you know, $4,000 in three months. I'm not going out and making, you know, an extra purchase on a TV to hit that minimum spent. That again, completely defeats the purpose. So there's got to be some sort of, you know, diligence there in keeping track of your spending and just, you're just transferring. Instead of taking those, you know, everyday purchases that you would spend groceries, dining out on the same card over and over, all you're doing is transferring that to new cards every few months or whatever your rhythm is. And then I would say things like, or whatever your rhythm is. And then I would say things like, you know, if you go out and apply for five new cards in a week, like absolutely your credit score is going to take a hit. Like you have to kind of play by the rules in a sense. I always say you really need to try and space applications by 90 days, ideally per kind of per person. So you could kind of stagger it if you're a couple. Things like, you know, if you are going to, after a year, maybe you're looking at downgrading a card, so you don't keep that annual fee going, right? Again, something that would completely defeat the purpose of the free travel. Let's say I might downgrade a card after a year. I'm never going to downgrade that card before the one-year mark. It's a red flag to banks. It's a red flag to the credit bureau. So that's kind of another piece. And really the crux of it all, though, is making full and on-time payments every single month. If you can do that, you will see your score go up, which feels very counterintuitive and very backwards, but that's how it works. You know, essentially as your credit amount grows and your utilization stays low, like ironically, again, it feels backwards. The credit bureaus like that. They like that really low utilization. And that's why really 100% of people, if you do it responsibly, that get into points and miles, see their score go up. You know, our score has never been higher, ever. So again, I guess that's what I mean when I say responsibly. Like, you've got to keep the guidelines in mind. You can't get like heavy handed with it or like shiny card syndrome. You know, you've got to be able to show some self-control. And if not, then maybe not in this season. It's the way to say for you. But yeah.
say for
Well, and one of the things you mentioned is that you've got to take your regular purchases, right? So you don't accumulate extra debt that you can't then pay off because then you're paying interest. So you're actually, I mean, you could spend that money on the vacation instead of that stuff. Exactly. Yeah. But then you're not, you're taking those regular purchases and meeting that minimum spend. So you would want to have that cycle anyway, right? Looking at your budget. And then when you're looking at opening those cards, if whatever that minimum is, you don't spend that amount, then there's other cards that you should definitely look at then. Exactly. Yes. And that would
looking at
at then. Exactly. Yes. And that would be a whole other piece there. That's a great point. Just signing up for a card strategically. Like if you are living on a tighter budget, you're not going to go out and get a new card that has a $10,000 minimum spent. Like that's not, that's not a good move for you. There's tons of a variety of cards that you can go for based on your budget, how much you're already spending, you know, naturally, what kind of travel you want to do, how you want to travel, where you want to travel. So there's, there's a whole, yeah, kind of strategy to it. But that's a huge piece is just being cognizant of what cards you're signing up for. So where would you
would you say, so either if people are just getting into this and like, okay, this is interesting. I want to try this. Or maybe they've had some travel credit cards. They've done this in the past, but then they didn't realize you could keep up with it more. What is the best way for people to then find out what is their next best card for them?
Sure. I mean, I always have like a best offers page on all my content. You know, elevated offers are always coming out, but I would say kind of beyond the elevated offers, I think like hands down, you know, without even thinking about anything, the best and easiest place to start is with the Chase Sapphire Preferred. It's, you know, the most widely, you know, recommended travel card, like hands down by all the experts, just based on the perks it's providing for such a low annual fee. And really, I think the crux of that card is its transfer partners. Like what you can do with those points is wild. What's possible, like the kind of travel that's possible because of what transfer partners that card has. So I think if you are like, I'm curious about this, I might want to, even if you don't think you want to like dive headfirst in, like just getting the's say you're a pair, you have a partner. Partner one signs up for the Chase Sapphire. You meet the minimum spend using your normal everyday purchases. You're then gonna refer your spouse for that same card. You're not gonna add them as an authorized user. You're gonna refer them to that same card. They're gonna meet the minimum spend using your normal everyday purchases. You're going to combine all of those points together into one big pile of juicy travel chase points. And then you're going to transfer those out. I think great, like really easy transfer partners to start with for flights is Southwest. Really, if you know, you definitely could go more complicated if you wanted to do like a Europe, Air France is a fantastic transfer partner for Europe. So you could do that. And then hotel wise, hands down Hyatt is very beginner friendly. You're going to see a massive return on your points for that. So I think that's kind of a great place to start, what I call like the beginner's blueprint. Like partner one and partner two both sign up for the Sapphire. You're going to combine your points together and then transfer them out to, you know, semi-beginner-friendly partners like Southwest and Air France and then for sure Hyatt. And then after that one- year mark, I always say you don't need two Sapphires per household. So you could want that partner two can downgrade. So you don't have that double ongoing fee. But that's that pay Sapphire really is like hands down one you want to keep in your wallet long term. It's not one, you definitely want one per household long term, you don't want to downgrade both.
So that's a great place to Thank And explain for people who don't know, start. Awesome. you.
what does that mean? Downgrade a card? Yeah. Great. Sorry about that. Yeah, I should have explained that. So essentially, a lot of a lot of the most valuable credit cards are going to have an annual fee, right? They have an annual fee for a reason, like things are just going to give away their most valuable cards, you know, at no cost typically. So something like the Chase Sapphire, for example, has an annual fee of $95. Now what you get with that is, you know, all these amazing transfer partners. You get built-in trip insurance, baggage delay insurance. You get a $50 hotel credit. You get a free DoorDash subscription. So you're getting a lot of perks back in your pocket for that low annual fee. And when I say downgrade, essentially, I mean, you are going to, you know, move that car down to a no annual fee option. So you're not having that ongoing $95 cost, you know, again, not defeating the purpose of the free travel. You're using that, you know, sign up bonus to get that big, rich pile of points. And then you can move that card to a no annual fee version, essentially in the same family of cards, basically. Right. And you just you do that either by calling them or like chatting with them online or whatever
you just you do that either by calling them or like chatting with them online or whatever that yeah it depends on the bank some some allow chat online like amx and city are great about
yeah it depends on the bank some some allow chat online like amx and city are great about online messaging and like chase you typically call in
yeah okay so let's on the chase sapphire real quick yeah there. There are multiple levels to that, right? So you mentioned the preferred, I think. Yeah.
you mentioned the preferred, I think. Yeah.
But then they also have a reserve.
Yeah. I love that question because I'm a nerd and I just love this stuff. Okay. So I think the reserve, I think people, I don't think it's as great as the advertisements make it seem. I think it's got a really steep annual fee. I think it's $550. It's really steep. For the perks that it provides, I do not think it is $550 worth a year. You know, I know a whole lot about travel credit cards. And I don't think, I think that $95 annual fee on the Sapphire Preferred provides far more benefits, I would say. If you want a premium card that provides like premium, you know, benefits, like namely, I would say like lounge access is a huge draw for people on the reserve, airport lounge access. I think if you are interested in premium perks like that, hands down the Capital One Venture X is the way to go. It's such a better value. You get such more extensive lounge access than the reserve provides. And it only has a $395 annual fee. And it provides tons of annual credits that help offset that. So that's my favorite combination. Like if I, you know, tell people to sign up for two cards, it's the Chase Sapphire and the Capital One Venture X. Like that's my favorite combo. Like if you don't want to get deep into points and miles, just having those two cards in your wallet can get you a lot more travel and a lot better travel in your pocket. Great. And I guess
one thing that you've kind of talked about is, so not only annual fee, but then these travel perks, because a lot of people are like, well, I don't want to have a card with an annual fee. Totally. Then some of these. Yeah. What you're saying is these perks, if you use them, almost negate that. So what would you say like are the
are like,
fee. Totally.
what would you say like are the best, yeah, the best travel perks that then take care of that? Yeah. I
Yeah. I mean, I think first of all, like that's totally normal again, like normal to be scared of an annual fee. Again, I think that's really financially responsible to try and avoid any sort of recurring costs that isn't putting value back in your pocket. So I totally get the hesitation and I 100% was the same before I got into this. But like, for example, let's look at the Capital One Venture X. My favorite, if it wasn't for the transfer partners on the Chase Sapphire, like the Venture X is, I just, if you can get over that mental hump of the annual fee, it's the best card to have in your wallet. So it's got a $395 annual fee, but with that, you are getting a $300 annual credit to use in their travel portal. $300 annual credit to use in their travel portal. So that right there is, like you said, if you can use that, that's the key. Now, if you neglect it and don't use it, no, that part isn't worth it right there. But we always make sure to use, I mean, who's not getting a rental car probably once a year? I always usually reserve that credit for rental cars because that's harder to save on with points. And so I find that a really easy way to use that credit for a cost it was going to have to be out of pocket anyway. So I might as well get all of these other glitzy benefits. So with that, so it is a $300 annual credit in the portal. You're also getting 10,000 anniversary points, which at a minimum equals $100. So that's kind of right there. We'd like pretty, if you can use that credit, it's slashed it down to zero. You're getting TSA pre-checking global entry credit. So you can go for global entry or it provides up to like $95 and TSA pre-check her global entry credit. I'm sorry, a hundred. That's a hundred dollars.
And typically the way that works, just to kind of typically the way that works is you have to put that, pay for that on that card. And then they usually automatically comes which off, is super nice. Okay. Yeah. You don't even have to put that, pay for that on that card. And then they usually automatically comes off, which is super nice. Okay. Yeah. You don't even have to call
And typically
And then they usually automatically comes which off, is super nice. Okay. Yeah. You don't even have to put that, pay for that on that card. And then they usually automatically comes off, which is super nice. Okay. Yeah. You don't even have to call in. It just literally recognizes the charge and gives you a credit. Yeah. It's really nice. And then a feature I love that I feel like is really underrated is the built-in travel insurance. Like, you know, luggage delay, trip delay, trip cancellation. like it's a very robust travel insurance. So all you have to do is essentially put any amount of that flight on that card on the Capital One Venture X and it's covering that flight. So even if you purchase, say, a points flight, let's say I purchased a points flight to Hawaii and I'm paying, you know, that $11 in taxes, because you can't avoid that when purchasing a flight with points, even that $11 in taxes, if I put that on the VentureX, it is covering that flight with trip delay, trip cancellation. So like we just went to Cabo a few months ago and our flight was canceled on the way home. And we had to end up spending two more nights in Cabo. Like, you know, shoot, it was lovely, but we weren't expecting hundreds of dollars of additional hotel costs. And so because we had put our flights, we purchased the flight with points, but we paid those taxes with the Capital One Venture X, we were covered up to $500 per ticketed passenger. So you just submit your receipts, you get that reimbursement back. So I think that alone is incredibly valuable. And then that's not even to mention like the unlimited lounge access that comes with this card. So you get unlimited lounge access to all Capital One, Plaza Premium, and Priority Pass lounges worldwide. And that's for you and two free guests and every
that's for
authorized user and two free guests. So essentially a family of six, this is the only card I recommend adding your spouse as an authorized user because of this exact feature. Essentially, a family of six could get unlimited worldwide airport lounge access with this one card. So I guess that's what I mean when I say, like, if you really look at those, you know, perks, sometimes it's putting a whole lot more value back in your pocket for that annual cost that you're paying.
Right. Just knowing that those exist. Right. So not only do you have these points and miles, but you have all these other travel perks, which makes travel day so much easier.
not only
so much easier. But just making sure. Yeah. Especially with kids. Especially with lounge expenses. Just saving the
saving the food. I mean, food is so expensive, you know, especially at airports. Like, and if you multiply that by three, four, five, six, I mean, that alone is saves us hundreds easily.
So. Awesome. And so I wanted just to highlight one other thing that you said is that, like, just redeeming those points. A lot of times you go into that credit card portal and it's like, okay, book in this portal, but it's the transferring those to these partners that makes those points so much more valuable. So I want you to just highlight, can you think of a couple of trips where it's been like night and day difference between the portal and what you have actually used those points for?
but it's
makes those
points for? Yeah. Okay. That's fun. I'll go with our most extreme example and then I'll maybe go like a little bit more what you might see more of, you know, because of course there's like the unicorn of a Redemptions. So last November, we took a kid-free trip to the Big Sur area, which was lovely and so wonderful. We booked a Lila Ventana Big Sur, which I had not heard of until I got in the points world. But essentially, it's a kind of five-star luxury boutique all-inclusive in Big Sur. And it is just as magical as it sounds. The food was fantastic. The service was like, I mean, best we'd ever experienced. Beautiful setting. You're like right on the coast in Big Sur. So that hotel in cash goes for, I would say anywhere from like $2,000 to $2,500 a night. Wild. Like I'm never, we're never going to drop that kind of
I'm never,
drop that kind
drop that
money. Right. Even if it goes, even if it comes with the best Oh, wow. I would have needed, what, 250,000 points for one
points for one night, right? Because if the cash cost is $2,500, if I'm doing that one-for-one trade, and I'm using my points as a cashback statement credit, which we did for years and years, I need 250,000 points for one night. Now, let's say I book in the portal. 250,000 points for one Now let's say I book in the like with the Chase Sapphire, night. portal, your points are worth 1.25 times more in the portal. Okay. So we're going to get a little bit better value there, right? And that's what Chase likes they to, like to put that on display, like, because they're getting money back in their pocket, essentially, you know, for booking in that portal. It's going right back in their pockets. So we're going to do a little better
So we're going
to do a little better in that portal. But if I take those exact same points and I transfer them to Hyatt, book the exact same room, exact same nights, we booked that property for 40,000 points a night instead of say 250,000 to maybe like 225, you know, 200,000 for a night. So 40,000 points a night for one night. So we essentially got three nights for less than the price of what we would have paid for one night. Wow. So that, that I would say is like the, you know, really unicorn of a redemption. That's probably been our best one, one of our best ones yet. But that's the power of transferring your points. You're booking the exact same property for the exact same night. But just because you move those points out and book directly with Hyatt, you're getting just this massive return on your points for a property and an experience that you never would have afforded or gone for otherwise. So that for sure was, I think, one of our best. That was a really, really cool trip and just an amazing property.
And I think that's kind of the key here is that what you are able to do, you would never pay for. You would never be able to experience these things. Yes, absolutely. At that level. And it doesn't always have to be that way. Like you could stay in budget type things, but you have that ability to then try to find some of these redemptions that are in your budget.
At that level. And it doesn't always have to be that
that are in your budget.
Yeah, exactly. And I think that's what I love about it is you can make it exactly what you want to, like based on your family's culture. And like, maybe you want to, you know, hike and do all the national parks and do budget hotels and like really stretch your points. Like if that's your bucket list, that points can make that happen. And maybe you're doing more national parks than you ever thought possible. Maybe your style is more like, you know, bougie on a budget and you want to stay at the luxury properties, but you don't quite, it's not quite in the budget right now. Like that's what I love about points is it makes things like that possible, but it also can make any, like whatever your bucket list looks like. I just love that. It can like make things in reach that weren't in reach
before. So. Do you have an example of like a flight example?
Yeah. Okay. So I feel like kind of in the vein of making things possible that you didn't think, I think lots of families want to go to Europe. I think it's one of those like bucket list things. Families are like, oh man, I'd love to take at one point like a Europe trip with my kids. But you go to look at the flights alone and you're like, well, we're already four to 5,000 in deep just to get over there. Like that's not hotels. It's not excursions, food. not hotels. It's not excursions, food. So I think Europe is also one of my very favorite redemptions because it makes like annual trips to Europe possible for us because we're able to get the tickets for a fraction of the cost. So my favorite strategy for Europe is to take actually any of your credit card points because all credit card points transfer to Air France. That's my favorite, hands down favorite transfer partner for Europe. Just amazing rates to Europe, usually great availability, very beginner friendly. And they offer a family program where kids, I think it's 12 and under, or it could be 11 and under, get 25% off their tickets and taxes. So it's amazing program for families. So essentially what you can do is, you know, let's say on average, a flight to Europe costs a thousand dollars. Let's just say on average, probably higher in peak summer, lower, maybe a little bit lower in off season. So let's say on average, a thousand dollars out of pocket and cash. Again, you multiply that by four or five, six, like that's a whole lot of money just to get over there. So we can transfer our points over to Air France and we can book essentially that exact same flight for, I would say on average, like 30 to 40,000 points round trip. And about, I usually shoot for like $200 in taxes per person. So 30 to 40,000 points round trip and about 200 in taxes. So instead of a thousand, you know, instead of my family dropping, say $4,000 on flights to Europe, I can fly my family to Europe for $800 instead. My entire family of four, potentially even a little bit less, like depending on the age of your kiddos. So again, like, okay, well, that just made that Europe trip like a little more in reach, you know, but especially if you could cover, you know, some of your hotels on points that really makes a bucket list trip. Again, it's not, it's not free. Sometimes the trips are nearly free. You know, sometimes, I'm sorry, the trips are free. Like that Big Sur one, like it covered the cost of our food. So, you
I'm sorry,
know, it really was pretty much truly free. And other ones, it's just really steeply discounting and making something possible that like really was 10 years away. And now it's right here. And every year. Yeah. Because you've been doing this every single year.
And now it's
Because you've been doing this every single year. And not only that, you've been doing this, what, three, four times a year between family trips and you and your husband. And yeah, I would say we're on average,
I would say we're on average, like, you know, realistically probably taking, yeah, four, like pretty bucket list trips a year, know not just to Ohio or you know like pretty you know like not that I don't love Ohio you know I don't know but you know like pretty things we've really dreamed about for a while and then maybe you know a few small like go and visit family or you know that's kind of a whole nother thing. I love that it takes away the stress of, you know, if something like a year or so ago, like a funeral came up and like, we could just purchase the ticket stress-free. Like we had this massive stash of points and we, you know, when things like that come up, it just takes off that financial burden. And that alone has been such a gift to us for weddings, seeing family, you know, when things like that come up, it just takes off that financial burden. And that alone has been such a gift to us for weddings, seeing family, you know, the unfortunate things that come up. So there's just so many. And all the while seeing our credit score, like never higher. So it really, I'm just like, why isn't everyone doing this? Like, it's just, if you can stay organized and stay responsible, it really is kind of life-changing. You know, it really has really changed our lives. We like to
like to say, you know, 30, 40,000 points round trip, you could fly to Orlando from Texas, right?
Or you can fly to Europe.
Or you can fly to Europe.
Right. If you know how to use your points. Exactly. Yep. Exactly. And so
we like to open up the idea that this is possible. You know, it's not something that you have to be uber wealthy and stuff like that. I love that you're talking about just the everyday family could accomplish this.
Absolutely. Oh, my gosh. That's the beauty of it. Yes. could accomplish this. Absolutely. Oh my That's gosh. the beauty of Yes.
Well, and I've heard you say we on average kind of get to about a million points a year without spending a million
I've heard you say we on average kind of get to about a million points a year without spending a million dollars. Yeah. It's pretty wild. Now I'll say that's with, I always like to be transparent, you know, so that's me and my husband, both opening up cards. And then we each have kind of a side hustle, which, you know, so that's me and my husband, both opening up cards. And then we each have kind of a side hustle, which, you know, we haven't even touched on business cards, but that's a whole nother opportunity for earning. So with both of our, you know, side hustles, which mine is like a larger, you know, I have an actual LLC. His is very minimal. I mean, he takes on maybe two, he's a woodworker, so he takes on maybe two woodworking projects a year. Very minimal side hustle, but that does qualify him for business cards. And through the ability to open up business cards, that's essentially like tripling and then quadrupling our points earning potential. So now we can apply for cards that get those big piles of points back in our pocket, you know, via him personally, me personally, his business and my business, which really, that really is attainable for a lot of people. You probably do have like a side hustle that qualifies and you don't even realize. So I'll say that like through those four kind of means, you know, we're referring each other back and forth. We're opening up those new cards and all through that, I would say on average, it sounds like a whole lot, but it's easier than you think about a million points a
year. Not to skip over it, that referral is important because you're getting bonus points with those referrals.
Yep, exactly. Yeah, anywhere from 10 to, right now it's 40,000 points is the highest referral bonus. That's about to go down. So I would say on average, you know, anywhere from 10 to 25,000 points additional for making that referral. And that's not to mention, I mean, you can refer people. Absolutely. You can, you know, the banks do cap. Typically you can make like four to five referrals a year and they cap it, but refer your friend, refer your mom. I mean, such an easy way to get free points, you know, back in your pocket. to get free points, you back know, in your pocket.
and So, I think you did make one good point is this, if you can stay organized, so do you have kind of a method or a system? Like, so how do you keep track of not only the cards you have, when they're going to renew so that you don't have to pay these fees? And then, you know, how do you make sure that you pay the minimums and that kind of thing? Yeah, that's a great question.
have to pay
a great question. Yeah, I would say my most important things are my Travel Freely app. Like hands down, everyone should go and download that. It's called Travel Freely. It's free, completely free. And it essentially is my sanity saver. You know, like I am a busy working mom. I do not have the mental space to like keep track of all these cards, these annual fees, these bonus points. And so this, this free app is a lifesaver. And it essentially, I input my card, no, no personal details. You're just putting in what type of card it is. So it's completely secure and it's keeping track of all my cards. It's keeping track of all my husband's cards. It's keeping track of all my husband's business cards, my business cards. It's sending me notifications like, hey, you have an annual fee coming up in 30 days. So I can then make a decision about what I want to do. Am I going to keep that card because it's providing my family ongoing value or is that one I'm going to downgrade to a no annual fee version? And then it makes recommendations on which cards to downgrade to. It keeps track of, you know, some other kind of stats that are helpful to keep track of when it comes to points and miles. It keeps track of all your points earned. I mean, it's just, it makes personalized card recommendations. Like, hey, here's your, here's, you know, based on the cards you have, here would be the most valuable next sign up for you. So hands down that I recommend downloading that free app.
And I agree. That is one, I've used that one for years too. So I totally agree. Yeah, it's really helpful.
Yeah, it's really helpful. Even like it has some great beginners videos in there too, just to kind of get you started. And then also just setting up auto pay, such a simple thing, but just whenever you get a new card, always, always, always set up auto pay right away. Because again, those full and on time payments are like, if you can't do that, you can't really do this. So you have to make those full and on time payments. So as soon as we get a new card, we are automatically immediately setting up auto pay.
That's a great point. Yeah.
So, Abby, do you ever get to the point where you run out of new cards?
Such a good question. I love that question. And one of the most common, too, I would say, no, you know, we've been doing this a few years and I, I still feel like there's so many cards to get. I would say a few things. One, there's always new cards coming out. So like, for example, that Capital One Venture X that we talked about earlier, that's actually a fairly newer card that just came out, what, two and a half years ago, maybe?
two and a half years So ago, new cards maybe. always coming Number out. Number two, one. a lot of Number I'll you there's cards. just a whole two, lot of cards say, out there. know, Like you have the big bank cards and then you have airline specific cards. You have hotel specific cards. I mean, there's just so many I avenues there's mean, just so many you avenues can you can go go down. down. And then number three, And then number what a lot of people don't three, know is you can get the bonus again on a lot of cards. So many cards allow you to earn that welcome bonus every 24 to 48 months. So each card has its own rules.
for like But, on that example, Chase Sapphire that we talked about at the you can beginning, earn the welcome bonus on that card every 48 months. you essentially So, know, you could sign up for say let's say it, it in, you know, was,
2024 right now. I'm going to hold on to one for my household for those four years. And then I'm going to down, I can downgrade that card to a no annual fee version. And a few weeks later, I can reapply for that Chase Sapphire and get that welcome bonus again. So that's a whole nother piece of things is there's kind of this perpetual earning capability with certain cards and banks.
Wow. Okay. And so you would be, you downgrade it and then you're reapplying for the higher level for the next, is that correct?
Right. You would downgrade it. Like let's say, you know, we took the Chase Sapphire and we say downgraded to say the Chase, like Freedom Flex, which is a no annual fee, actually great card to have in your wallet. And then I could reapply for the Chase Sapphire. Okay. Preferred. Just normal, that $95 annual fee one. Okay. So, yeah. Okay. Wow.
So I have another question for you. Yeah.
Yeah.
When you go somewhere, are you the person who's keeping up with the, hey, no, that's not the right card to use at a restaurant. Use this other card and, you know, and you're checking into the hotel, buying gas, right?
That's so funny. I am not the person that'll say anything. I probably think it in my mind, like, oh, man, you could be earning so many more points, you know? If someone asks me, I'll for sure, you know, tell them, like, hey, did you know you could be earning, like, four times points at restaurants? I'm did you know you could like, be hey, earning like four times points at restaurants? but I I usually Like, don't don't, like point it but I definitely out, am thinking it in my head. Like, you know, cause so many people just have that like one Marriott card they've had for 15 years, you know, and they just have no idea. Yeah. Right. You don't know what you don't know. Like, you know, that was us with a Southwest card that we had for like, again, 15 years, probably like we just had no idea kind of what we were missing out on, you know, in a way. So yeah, but I definitely do think it in my head.
Yeah. And we're totally guilty. So we are from Atlanta, grew up in Atlanta. Pat's mom actually worked for Delta. He's had Delta status forever. And so, yes, we are still the ones who have some of the Delta cards for the benefits and stuff like that. Totally. And we have even, you know, like we have these points, we've even used them in the chase. So a lot of people, I think Amex is the only one that transfers to Delta. Correct. And so it's a little bit harder to get those Delta points. And there has been times that we have used the portal and just said, okay, because he has the status that where then we would get still, we would get the upgrades, right? So we would end up in first class, even though it's going to cost us more. And Delta points are anybody who uses Delta points knows that you talking about an Air France flight round trip for 40, I mean, you're looking at, oh yeah, I think the best redemption we've ever gotten on Delta is like 60, yeah, high 60s to 75 or something like that. But if that was what works out for you, then that's what works out for you. But you're saying if you can look at these other ones, if you can be flexible, if you can book on Air France, like it yeah, it
So we would
though it's going
might mean the difference between one trip and two trips or three trips. Exactly. And
Exactly. And I think that's, that's such an important point, though, is you can't, like, I think there's so many people in the points world that get really caught up on the points
I think
world that get really caught up on the points value, you know, like, oh, you got how many cents per point, you know, I think a lot of people get really caught up in that. But like, I think at the end of the day, if it's saving you money, whether you use it in the portal, like, okay, no, you're not going to get the best return on your points using them in the portal. But if it's saving you money, and the trip is bringing you joy, or it's like something your family really wants to do,
I think who cares? You know, like, it's your points. And I don't think you can really like get caught at the end of the day. I just, and I think that's like some of the hardest part of my job is I feel like sometimes I get lost in like the nitty gritty of like these card perks and the welcome bonus and transferring here and redeeming there. And it's like, really, at the end of the day, it is about the memories that you're making as a family. Like, period. So who cares if you got a two times return on your point or a.5 return on your point or a seven times return on your point on a business class flight? Like, I just really think, don't stress about it. Like if you use it in the portal and it brought you joy and it saved you money, you know, like you know better now, but also, hey, you know? So that's kind of my philosophy. I try not to, even though it's my job, I try not to be too serious about it.
Because at the end of the day, it's like you said, it's still free or discounted. Yes, exactly. It was something that you may or may not have been able to do at that level without having this. And so that brings me to a question that I'd actually written down because I've heard you say some things and this is how I am. But what do you say to people who research to the nth degree and then you're finally like, okay, like I've got to book this trip before then you keep researching and then it's completely gone. So how do you make that leap? Totally.
Totally. Okay. I literally just did this. We just spent a weekend in Martha's Vineyard and I just researched it to death.
Totally.
death. I mean, and by the time I did, some of the options I was looking at were gone, you know, and they were good options. So I will say, I guess two things. One, something in the points and miles world that we say is earn and burn. Like you want to earn those points and you want to burn them. You want to earn them and you want to use them right away because your points will never, ever get more valuable just sitting there ever. They are literally losing value as they sit there, just like with cash and inflation. It's the same thing. So if you can, like, I can't tell you how many messages I get of people that are like, I'm just sitting on 300,000 points and like, I analysis paralysis, you know, like, I just can't, I don't know what to do with them. I just can't bring them. I'm too scared of using them in the wrong way. So I think that's a really helpful, it's just as they're sitting there, they're getting less valuable. I would say the earning part is not the hard part. The redeeming part, I think, is the harder part. I think once you get in this, you see how actually really easy it is to earn. It's the redeeming part that kind of gets tricky. So I think that kind of helps, you know. And then also just the mindset of like, yeah, knowing you can always earn more. There's not ever going to be a perfect redemption and that's okay. If you save money in the end, you can always go back and earn more and either do that trip again or do a whole nother trip. So yeah, I think that's a really good question. But yeah, they never get more valuable. So you really want to try and use them as soon as you earn
them. Yeah, that is a good and stop looking, right?
Yeah, I know. That's good. Stop looking. You do it to yourself. I know. I mean, I will say that's kind of a perk of points. Things are more easily cancelable, you know, without any consequences. So that's another perk. But yes, stop looking once you booked.
mean, I will say
any consequences.
Yeah, and that is true. They are because I we I, we had just actually booked a trip when Delta kind of came out with that one where they give you, what is it? 15% off for certain members literally the day before I had booked a trip. And of course it made him so nervous because I'm like, well, I'll just cancel these and I'll wait for them to go back. And it's like, and it worked, but it
it made
just, it does make you nervous. But I think you just have to then at that point, you have to stop looking and move on with your, you know, move on with the rest of your plans and stuff. I think that's a great, yeah, I think that's a great point. And just, and, and the point of
just, it does make you
I think that's
the point of them is to use them, right? Not to have just this bank of points that like
to have
of points that like never, never use. Yeah. So. And the point of them is to see somewhere you want to see and build family
use. Yeah. So. And the point of them is to see somewhere you want to see and build family memories, you know, at the end of the day, that's, that's the purpose. So. So I want to kind of close out with a couple of
to kind of close out with a couple of things. So the first thing I want to do is allow you to share kind of how people can get ahold of some other resources. And I want to kind of share, give you a testimonial that you don't even know about for an upcoming trip that we have first. Oh, yay. Okay. And then we're going to close with some questions that we ask everybody. And there is so much more that people can
And then
learn about this. And you're an amazing teacher. So we've barely scratched the surface. So I guess tell people how they can find you and then dig deeper into some of their strategies. And before you do I do want to that, you have these say, dig deeper into some of their And strategies. before you do that, I do want to say you have these amazing charts in one of your guides. And I think it's a second level guide. Yes, I literally printed off like three copies of this. So we're
you're an
Yes, I literally
three copies
happy. Yes. So Scott and I are going to Africa. We're going to do Egypt, Kenya and South Africa in a couple of months. And so, you know, part of it is a safari. So we that was out of pocket. Right. Yeah. There may be ways to do points with safari, but we're not doing that. Yeah. But for these flights and for some of the other places we're going, we wanted to do that. And so I really wanted to. We had we had started about a year ago, you know, with the Chase Reserve. We've done some other cards. We really, we had a bank of points that we wanted to do because for us, it's just the two of us, we wanted to be able to do some like first class redemptions, right? Absolutely. Long haul flights. Absolutely. But then being able to take, so you have these charts printed out. It shows you your transfer
So Scott
going to
partners, there's a couple of different cards. I had those as a great guide to then start looking at some of these redemptions. So tell us a little bit about how, what you offer, how people can get deeper in with you because you're a fantastic teacher and the way that you explain this is amazing.
at some of
can get deeper
Thank, that means a lot. Thank you. I used to be in education. So that really, I feel like it kind of has been like a really awesome combination of my kind of past and actions, which has been really, I feel like it kind of has been like a really awesome combination of my kind of past and actions, which has been really, really cool. So I'm honored that you would purchase the guide. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to hear that it brought you value. So yeah, I do have, I have a free guide. If you're interested, if you're visual and, you know, you just want to like see it in front of you, like I so visual I just want to see it I want to touch it um I do have a free guide that kind of gets in writing like kind of everything we talked about I feel like here so you can find that my main platform I'm on I'm on Instagram at wayfaringco w-a-y-f-a-r-e-n-co um so that's kind of my main like home of sorts on the internet other than my blog which everything's linked though in my instagram um so you can find my free guide there which just goes over again that big picture framework of how this all works and how to do it with keeping your credit you know super high and then i have my paid guide, the points 201, which you purchase. And that's going to be like all the nitty gritty and like how this actually works. Cause kind of once you get into it, I mean, you're even like, okay, once I have these points, like how do I even transfer them? Like I don't even know in my bank portal, like how to transfer points and how does that work? So it goes in depth in all like, you know, video demos, step-by-steps, video tutorials, all these charts for easy reference, like kind of like two-click tools to make things essentially just to like fast track your nearly free vacations. Like if you want to kind of jump over the learning curve and just dive in and start, you know, traveling more for less a whole lot faster, I would say that's kind of who my points 201 guide is for. It's just that, like really the how of it all. So all of that is linked at the link in my profile on my Instagram page, Wayfair & Co. And then I have my blog, blog.wayfair.com, where, you know, if you prefer that type of content, more long form, I have that there as well. So
yeah. And we will put the links. I'll put the link to your Instagram and then some of your other guides. But your free guide is amazing too. I mean, it's not five pages either. It's huge and it's
too. I mean,
huge and it's free. And so, yeah. I do really try
And so, yeah. I do really try and, try and really want it to be worth people's time. So I know people's time is precious.
Yes. Well, it's awesome. Okay. So we have some questions that we like to ask all our guests. There's three questions.
three questions. The first one is your most favorite place you've ever visited.
This question is so hard. It's so hard to choose. Okay. That's number number one you want me to start yeah go ahead you want to think about it you can give us a runner-up too if you if you need to because we're the same way
to think about it you can give us a runner-up too if you if you need to because we're the same way yeah i'm gonna okay i'm gonna have to go with a trip that was
okay i'm gonna have to go with a trip that was like yes it was amazing place but it was also a meaningful trip so I feel like that's kind of a piece there. And then I'll give you a runner up, I think. Okay. So Norway, we went to Norway last summer and we went with our whole extended family. So it was, I think it was 13 of us total, like five being like young, young kids. My husband's side of the family is Norwegian. So we, they always kind of had like a bucket list dream to do like a heritage trip of sorts over to Norway. And so we, you know, I helped everyone get their flights on points. Everyone transferred their Capital One points to Air France and we got our, everyone got their tickets for around that $200 over to Norway, which like totally made the trip possible. And then we got to go to kind of like my husband's namesake, like Hattaberg Valley, Hattaberg Waterfall, this tiny, just otherworldly charming city, you know, in the countryside of Norway. And it was just like, hands down, one of the most beautiful places we've been. It was so family friendly for young families. And I, you know, I just can never get enough of Europe. I love, I can go there, you know, just never get tired of it. So I would say that just because it was so majestic, like the fjords. And I mean, there truly wasn't an inch of it that wasn't beautiful. Like we just kept going everywhere and it was way, just even better than we thought. So I'll say that. And then I'll, okay, I'm going to put my number two. It's really hard. I'm going to say number two is a tie for, we went to the Azores Islands, which we really loved. Those are off
loved. Those are
off the coast of Portugal. That was just so unique. And it just felt like kind of this a little bit of an untouched hidden gem that like hasn't been discovered yet so prices were just so reasonable it felt reasonably empty compared to other European places in the summer the natural beauty it was like it was just so like biologically diverse and ecologically diverse it was gorgeous so I'll say that is my my runner-up probably that sounds awesome so i
that sounds awesome so i think we need to get there sooner rather than later but yes you do a lot of people it's like the hawaii yeah yeah so the problem i would say with this question these questions is we always add to our bucket list, right? That's so true. I love that.
So the next question that we ask everyone is what's on your bucket list that you haven't done yet? Oh my
gosh. Okay. Right now it changes every week. I feel like I, South Africa is up there for us. So I would, we would really like to make that happen in the next few years, I think. So I'm going to be taking notes when you guys hear that. That one's really up high, especially for my husband. I would say this upcoming year, we're planning for a trip to Bora Bora for our 15th anniversary. So I think that's kind of been on our list for quite some time. So I would say there.
That one's
What else? I think there's even just in the u.s though like i'm so eager to go to like the tetons or glacier national park like i i it's so hard for me to choose i would say i would say right now those are i mean we haven't really explored asia much like we're dying to go to thailand i would say those are kind of the top ones coming to mind right now. Oh, and I'll add the Faroe
Faroe Islands. I would
I would love to do the Faroe Islands. It seems a bit similar to Norway. So I was trying to maybe wait a year or two before we do that one. But yeah, that's high up there as well. Yeah. We fell in love with that after watching Colin and Meg.
We fell in love with that after watching Colin and Meg. Yes. Same. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I saw another account a few
Yes. Same. Yes. Yes. Yes. And
another account
account a few years ago post about it I feel like this is what happens to me is I see someone else post about it and then it just gets lodged in my brain and I can't let it go and I'm like we have to go there you know and so I mean thankfully with points like I can make it possible but yeah I feel like that's the same I see someone else post about it and then I just can't let go of it. So,
well, and that's what I was going to say. What's amazing is these are not just, Oh, this is on my bucket list, but you're going to figure out how to do it with miles. And that's what's so incredible. Yeah. I can't believe
Yeah. I can't believe we're even like thinking about a Bora Bora trip, like never in my wildest dreams. Could we afford that? So it's exciting.
That's awesome. And then so tell us one one more question okay it is what's next on your list yeah where are you headed
us one one more question okay it is what's next on your list yeah where are you headed
are you headed next okay we are going so we just got back from a summer in the east coast and late september we are heading to the oregon coast so we're doing like one night in port Portland and then like three or four nights on the coast, kind of by like Cannon Beach area. And then in October, we're doing Southern Spain. So like the coast of Del Sol area, kind of around Malaga. We're really excited about that. I'm excited to go that time of year because I hope it'll be a little, you know, not as hot, a little less crowds. So yeah, that's what's up next for us.
Awesome. And all with points and miles, which is what I think is just incredible.
It's really offsetting a ton of our costs.
And making that possible. So yeah. Well, thank you so much. This has been so informative. I always learn from watching your reels, from watching your Instagram stories. I always learn from watching your reels, from watching your Instagram story. I always learn stuff. And then I always learn, I'd learn new stuff tonight is, you know, you can ungrade that card and then re-enact that. I had no idea. So thank you so much for sharing this with
you can ungrade
with our listeners. And we just appreciate that so much.
Thank you for having
you for having me.
Thank you, Abby. Thank you, Abby.
So I guess it's important to say that this mainly helps with your hotel and accommodations, which for most trips is going to be your biggest expense that you have. And so what we've tried to say today is this is going to help you get to a maybe some free travel or near free travel, but it's not going to take care of everything. However, since those are your biggest expenses, this helps you get to the point where you can afford to do this maybe even multiple times a year like Abby and her family do. What do you find to be the best use of your credit card reward points? Email me, scott at sunshinetravelers.com, and let me know what you think. We always love hearing from our listeners. We hope you enjoyed this episode and found some inspiration to help you with your travel journeys. If you could take a moment to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform, it would be greatly appreciated. Your five-star reviews help us get discovered by others and possibly featured on your favorite platform. Don't forget to follow or subscribe to our podcast to get notified of new episodes as they are released. You can also find us on Instagram and Facebook at Sunshine Travelers Podcast. Remember, that is travelers with one L. Most importantly, please share it with your friends to help them catch the travel bug. You never know, they may become your greatest travel companion.
